It’s easy for business owners to get caught up in the day-to-day and forget the visionary aspect of their job as leaders. But how do you build in time to work ON, not IN your business?
Terry Ogburn is the founder of Ogburn’s Business Solutions, a consultancy that helps small businesses improve the bottom line. Today, he joins Bob to explain how he supports business owners in developing a vision for the future and designing a plan to reach their goals.
Terry offers advice on taking time to reflect at the end of each day and shares the top four habits of successful business leaders. Listen in for insight on empowering your team to make mistakes and learn how to set up systems for working ON, rather than IN your business.
A time-stamped transcript of this episode is below.
Topics Covered
[2:56] Terry’s mission to help businesses grow
[3:29] The most common pitfalls for business owners
[4:47] How fear can keep us working IN, rather than ON our business
[6:23] How Terry helps business owners reach their goals
[7:42] A leader’s role in helping employees grow and understand the vision for the company
[10:01] Empowering your team to make mistakes
[13:03] Terry’s take on joy as a key ingredient of success
[15:37] Why it’s crucial for business owners to reflect at the end of each day
[17:14] The four habits of successful business owners
[21:18] Why business leaders need to embrace technology
[22:11] Leveraging neurolinguistic programming to build rapport with different people
[23:59] Terry’s story of the one decision that turned his business around
Connect with Terry
Call (727) 422-4771
Connect with Bob
Email info@ncpropertygroup.com
Resources
Crossing the Chasm by Geoffrey A. Moore
The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. Covey
The new eBook, Best Practices for Renting Your Home, is offered as a free download on the North County Property Group website at https://www.ncpropertygroup.com/ebook!
Sponsor
Seacoast Commerce Bank specializes in business banking for property managers, ensuring that your accounts are set up to meet compliance standards, so your company and clients’ funds are properly protected. https://sccombank.com/
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Bob Preston: 01:48 Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Property Management Brainstorm show. I'm Bob Preston, your host, broadcasting from our studio at North County Property Group in Del Mar, California. If you're new here, please subscribe so you have ongoing access to all of our great episodes and if you like what you hear, please pay it forward with a positive review. As the owner of a property management company, North County Property Group, it's very easy to allow myself on any given day to sort of jump into the daily details of the business because the company always has so many balls in the air as the broker/owner. However, I also have to pay attention to the big picture initiatives which move the company forward into new stages of growth. In other words, as the broker/owner and the president of the company, it's imperative that I take time to work on the business as opposed to always working in the business. I have with me today as a guest on this show, Terry Ogburn, owner of Ogburn Business Solutions who has helped hundreds of small business owners with the same executive time management dilemma. Hey Terry, welcome to Property Management Brainstorm.
Terry Ogburn: 02:54 And thank you for having me on the show, Bob. I really appreciate it.
Bob Preston: 02:58 Yeah. Now I've read your bio super interesting background and so a good place to start always is just telling our listeners about yourself and what Ogburn Business Solutions is all about.
Terry Ogburn: 03:08 Good. Um, we're about business development. I know a lot of coaches and consultants out there, but my platform is about helping businesses grow from either infrastructure or from getting sales, direct sales, but adding to the bottom line of always wanted to be a person that you know, contributed to the bottom line. It's easier to get paid that way. Bob, you know, if you're making money for the people.
Bob Preston: 03:30 Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So, I run a property management business, North County Property Group, and also a real estate broker. And I gotta tell ya in my business it's can be pretty complex with a lot of balls in the air on a daily basis. And so, you talked to a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of business owners, probably mostly small businesses I'm guessing. But what are the gotchas and pitfalls that you see for guys like me? You know what, what typically do people fall into that may be a gotcha or a pitfall?
Terry Ogburn: 04:01 A lot of times we get so involved in the technical part of our work, the day to day grind stuff that we have to do, the paying the bills and getting to the bank and you know, we get caught up into that and it becomes like a vortex and it sucks us into that and we forget the other two main important parts of our business, which is the visionary part. We have to take time out to look at what our business is going to look like in the future and how do we want to do that. And then not only the manager side of our businesses and making sure we put systems and things in place that cause us to get to the goals and the way our business wants to look. So, there's two parts that we start out with the vision and we put things in place to help us with it and then we get suck Bob into that day to day stuff and we forget about all the fun stuff when we first started.
Bob Preston: 04:48 Absolutely. You know, when I started my business, as you can imagine, it was just me. I liked your comment about the technical stuff because I mean I did everything right. I mean I had a, I was a one man show, I had a one man office, I, I did all the new business calls, I signed all the property management, I did all the showings of leasing, all that kind of stuff. But as the company grew, what I found was the need to delegate a lot of that, which was in the beginning, very challenging for me. But overall, kind of the process that you described of getting away from working on a daily basis in your business to be in an entrepreneur that's working on his business was an adjustment I made along the way. And I got to believe that's kind of the theme of the show, by the way. That's probably going to be the title of the episode, you know, working on your business instead of in your business. And that's gotta be a common theme that you hear. Right?
Terry Ogburn: 05:37 Well, it's certainly been a niche in the marketplace where I have carved a place. A lot of companies still are not compatible to working on their business because their ego and your thinking, some of the notes that I sent you, you know, one of the things we have to fix in, in business mindsets is their ego. You know, in all industries know their ego is fear based. It's all based on the fear they're going to lose and they're not going to get the deal or they're not going to get the company or any of those things. And we need to be able to set that aside.
Bob Preston: 06:07 Yeah. Fear of the unknown, thinking that you are the one who can only do it because you'll do it better than anybody else could. You know? That's that kind of delegation process. That's pretty scary for a lot of entrepreneurs, but you're never going to scale without it. Right? You've got to go there. Okay. So, from my perspective, I've owned my own business now for about 20 years and I tell ya, you know, overall in the big picture, it's a blessing and I love it. I mean, I love being my own boss. I, I come to work every day with a skip in my step and I don't report to anybody. I can pretty much keep my own schedule, manage my own schedule, right? I don't have to answer it to people in that regard, but frankly, there are times when it just seems like it is also a curse. Right. There had some bad days that come along with those. Those days when I feel blessed and it's very lonely at the top. Is that a familiar theme you hear from some of your clients or some of the business leaders that you meet?
Terry Ogburn: 07:04 There's always going to be ups and downs or the roller coaster ride. Some people determine it as a hamster wheel. The success that your listeners will find is if they work backwards, you're still going to have the arcs, the up and downs, but you're going to be moving towards an incline or a trend graph that's going to show upward movement. So with my program, what we do is we establish where you want to be five years and we chunk it down to one year and then we focus on 90 days and at the end of that 90 day period we reevaluate and we have to adjust. But at the same time, we're adjusting every week, so we're never more than seven days out of real time.
Bob Preston: 07:44 Growing a company I've found is has never been a straight line. It's more I compare it more to a stair step kind of approach because yeah, I mean what I find and I found over the years is that we'll work on a process or under a process until it maybe breaks or reaches its own level of inefficiency. You know what I'm talking about? Then we're like, okay, this isn't working anymore, so what else can we do to improve this particular area of the business? We make a change in boom, there's a stair-step, right? So, then we keep pushing, we keep growing. Something else breaks, boom. Sometimes those breaks can be processes that your companies operate in it or sometimes it can be people you have in certain positions, you know, and growth and the need to do things differently sometimes requires the need for different people that you don't yet have in the organization. There are all kinds of reasons why things can end by break. I don't mean lead like, Oh, the whole, you know, it's a house of cards and the company starts falling apart. I just mean it becomes apparent that we need to do things differently.
Terry Ogburn: 08:46 Exactly, and even sometimes the employees, they, they get to a level where they stopped growing. You know, I have a that I work with and his office manager really would love to have the title of chief operating officer, but she can't get out of the office manager's mindset. Yeah, right. Another thing that we should also do, I find successful is understanding what your teammates goals and dreams are and then help them get to there.
Bob Preston: 09:15 Exactly. Like using your, um, office manager or whatever as an example. Is that I think that's part of the leader's role is to help that person understand what the vision is if he or she takes that next step. Right. And one of those stairsteps like I mentioned, okay, this is broken now. I know this is going to be painful. I know this is going to be uncomfortable for you, but here's, you know, let's talk about how we're going to do it now and let's talk about maybe the new processes, maybe, maybe it's new technology, maybe it's a new approach and this is going to take us to this point. And then there's always sometimes a little bit of a resistance and then, okay, aha, I get it. You know, let's move on.
Terry Ogburn: 09:55 I like to refer to it like Legos. We all love building Legos, but you've got to put the right Lego and the right color and rights fought or it's not going to work.
Bob Preston: 10:03 Yeah, that's a cool analogy. Well, what are the typical struggles you hear when business owners come to you? I mean, there must be some common themes that you hear from people. They come to you for a reason, you know, what are, what are those things that you hear?
Terry Ogburn: 10:16 Usually when somebody comes to me, I like to call it a bell curve and if you come to me in your about one to three years old, you're getting started and you realize that you need help and so you, you come to me and that's really one of the places I really like to get you as in that one to three year period because you still have an open mind and you're, you get past that, you start getting set in your ways and then that's when we start to get over the hump. So clean that four-year period to that six or seven-year period is that hump thing. And so, when you get to about eight years, you come back and you need me then again because now you can't grow, you don't know how to grow. So, so I like you in between those. Now the common thing that gets in most people's way is themselves. They don't, they don't realize the importance of empowering more and more companies now are learning how to empower their people to make mistakes. It's okay, you know, be there to, you know, make sure that they don't hurt themselves, but it's okay for them to, you know, to make a mistake here and there.
Bob Preston: 11:16 It can be the best way to learn sometimes like go try it. Okay, here's, here's how I do it. Here's how I've seen other people do it. You go try, see how it goes. I'm right there to catch ya if you screw it up. But um, you know, sometimes that can happen. That's the best way to learn. You described this bell shaped curve and if you're a Jeffrey Moore, you know, fan, I'm sure you're aware of, you know, crossing the chasm and getting to the other side of that chasm and reaching the tipping point. I guess from your perspective, when other business leaders or the owners of small companies come to you, are they, you know, you may have already described this, are they in the very beginning stage or are they looking at that kind of extra push they need to get themselves into that top 5% maybe of the companies that are in their industry,
Terry Ogburn: 12:02 They realize it. That's why my slogan is uh, bridge the gap between dreams and reality. You know, when we all started, when you started your business 20 years ago, you had dreams, you had this big idea that you were going to set the world on fire and fair to say.
Bob Preston: 12:17 Yeah, fair to say. I mean, I think at the time it was an idea and I kind of fussed with it for a while and then eventually I was all in and I'm all in. This is going to be what re how I recreate myself for the future.
Terry Ogburn: 12:27 And like with me, when I started my air conditioning business, they've told me I couldn't do it. Okay, well gave me fuel, you know, in the ass. Well I can do that. You don't have figured it out, but I'm the exception, not the rule. Most people, they leave a job, it's because they're upset. They want to start something. They want it there. They're smarter than everything. So, they get out there and say, forget that. That just because you're a good technician doesn't make you a good business owner just because you can fix something. Or just because you're good at selling real estate doesn't make you a broker. You know yourself. You though the worst thing that happened in your industry is when the MLS came out.
Bob Preston: 13:06 Right? Well, now Amazon's, you know, toying around in a two. Ah, that, that raised a lot of eyebrows there for a while. But that seems to have gone by the wayside. So, yeah, I mean, I think what's you're talking about is, um, different measures of success and how does an entrepreneur really get to the point where they're considered successful? And I suppose that, you know, there are lots of ways to measure that. The, what is success, right? And so, I guess I'm curious from your perspective, what are your main measures and the characteristics you see in entrepreneurs that in your mind have become successful? I hope you understand the question.
Terry Ogburn: 13:41 Sure. It's a great question because success I think should mean to everyone happy, joyful. You know, if you get out of bed every day and you go to work and you get in, it's five o'clock before you know it and you're doing something joyful, you know, I'm sure you've been on conversation, podcasts and you get on, you can't wait to get off. You can't wait for your 30 minutes to be done.
Bob Preston: 14:04 Occasionally, yeah, right.
Terry Ogburn: 14:05 And then, but another time you look down, you, Oh my goodness, it's been an hour. You know, and you don't even realize that, you know, that time has gone by that fast type thing. So, to me it's, I can, even in business, if you're not good CEO, then don't be, it's okay for you not to be the CEO. You know, if you're good at getting listings, then you be the person that goes out and gets the listings. Hire somebody else to manage the office or run the marketing or everything.
Bob Preston: 14:33 This episode of Property Management Brainstorm is being sponsored by Seacoast Commerce Bank. If you are in the property management business, I highly recommend you choose Seacoast Commerce Bank as your banking partner. This is the one bank that gets our businesses. Property managers, while property management trust remain a subject, rarely understood that most banks, Seacoast Commerce Bank specializes in business banking for property managers, ensuring that your accounts are set up to meet compliance standards, so your company and your client's funds are fully protected. One of their best features is their cash analysis program where they can assist in paying your property management related invoices. They also provide for remote deposit capture, ACH capabilities, wire transfers, compatibility with most property management software, and many other banking conveniences. Important to our property management business. For more information about Seacoast Commerce Bank contact, Alison Desarro at (619) 988-6708 or follow the link provided in the episode notes.
Bob Preston: 15:39 I had a boss that I worked for in kind of a previous career in this goes back into the nineties in Silicon Valley and I was struggling with some things I couldn't quite figure some things out and I went to him kind of as my mentor and he looked at me, he said, Bob, here's what you do at the end of the day today, fire yourself. And then about an hour later, rehire yourself and then look at this like a brand-new job and let's talk tomorrow. And I thought it was a really interesting kind of approach, right? And I go, my God, he's right. I've gotten so sucked into the daily way. I look at this, I'm breathing my own fumes and I'm not giving this. I'm not allowing myself the time. I think this is kind of that working in or on the business kind of thing. I wasn't giving myself enough time to just sort of sit back and say, Whoa, you know, these things aren't working. How do I change this with a fresh perspective?
Terry Ogburn: 16:29 You know, I would entertain, tell your audience that you should be willing to close your day every day. So that means you take a timeout and not just close the front door and lock it. I'm talking about sit down in your office and you draw a line. You say 5:30 to 6:30 I'm going to analyze what I did today and I'm going to prioritize what I'm going to do tomorrow and I'm going to get it all mapped out and do that every afternoon before you go home. And you don't have to close it at five 30 and close at three today and six tomorrow. Whenever, whenever you, and it doesn't mean you don't stop working. It means if the phone rings five minutes after six, you pick it up, you handle it. You know that's not it. It's just giving you that moment to reflect back on these three questions. What did I do right? What did I do wrong? And what could I have done better? Very simple.
Bob Preston: 17:17 Yeah, and then how I'm, how am I going to hit it hard tomorrow? I mean, I, I kind of do that practice that you're describing. I'm a big list guy, so I call that at the end of the day, my clarity break, I take a, I take a moment and I go through all my emails. I, I look at all the notes from the day that happened. I put it into a list that's kind of my charge list for the next day, right? I got the hot list and then I hit it hard the next day. Tackling each of those issues. Sometimes they're difficult issues. Sometimes they're easy issues that get knocked off right away. Sometimes they're issues that aren't a high priority and they continually get pushed down; you know? But Hey, yeah, that's how I do it.
Terry Ogburn: 17:54 Everybody should have some sort of system. I can give you four things right now that for your listeners, if they'll just implement these four things right to their daily routines. Are you ready? The first one is whatever you're going to do, commit to it. You know, all in burn the boats, you know, like the warriors did, you know, burn them, you know, make a full commitment. Be the in it to win it, so to speak. And then number two, make sure that your determination, you have total 100% determination to get to that commitment that you're, I mean, there's nothing that's going to stop you. And then number three, put disciplines in your life that make sure that your commitment comes true. If you have to get up a half hour early, if you have to stay up a half hour late, whatever you have to do, just make sure that your, your, you put those disciplines in life. In fact, I'll give every person on your podcast permission to procrastinate on anything that doesn't take them towards their goals. So, they can still procrastinate. Okay? It's just, it's gotta be a dog for a walk. Right? Right. Passing on that does its business on the floor, you know. And then the last thing is visualization. We have to visualize it in our possession. We have to already claim it to be ours. So that, so that when we see it, it becomes ours.
Bob Preston: 19:15 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I guess I look at these four things and I'm assuming, you know, you hear these sayings and I know there's a book called the habits of highly effective people. I mean, I, I got to believe that these four areas you've described, most successful CEOs or people who have grown a successful business probably have it, right. I mean I think this is kind of described as the it or maybe the habits of particularly effective and successful people. Would you agree with that?
Terry Ogburn: 19:44 Well, it doesn't fall in line with the book itself. Uh, I'm a proponent of, I don't know. I wasn't trying to quote the book. No, no. But, but basically in its, in any endeavor, you know.
Bob Preston: 19:56 Yeah. I've never used these four characteristics specifically, but I do have a lot of people that come to me on occasion and say, God, you know, you can't believe what you've achieved or what you've built. You know, it's, it's amazing. You know, how did you do it? Or I'd like to do that. And so, you know, typically my input to them as well be ready to be all consumed, right? I mean this, especially in the early stages, maybe the first two to three years because it is all consuming. So, you better be ready to be all in. And if you don't think you have the stomach for that or the courage or the, you know, desire some of these things, you know, the commitment that disciplines the visualization of what that's gonna look like, right? These are all kind of your, your vernacular. Then think twice about it because you might end up spending a lot of money on something that doesn't work out. I think sometimes also when people look, I dunno my business or other businesses and they see what someone has built or achieved, they kind of look at it and in their say, gosh, I wish I could do that and think that perhaps it's easy and I can speak from my experience. It's really hard. I'm just telling you that right? To start your own enterprise and to grow a consistently over a period of time to be, you know, profitable and with processes in place, systems in place. It's hard, right. Would you agree?
Terry Ogburn: 21:16 Exactly, but it's uh, but it's also, you know, rewarding.
Bob Preston: 21:21 Technology has clearly changed the way most companies do business. I mean, I know for my business in our company, we have to stay on top of technology because, you know, it helps us be more efficient. There are new ways of doing things, being introduced all the time. You know, do you find that some business owners are just behind on this and are kind of being left in the dust, so to speak because of their unwillingness to adapt to new technologies?
Terry Ogburn: 21:45 You're spot on, Bob. Once again, we have to embrace technology. What if I would've told you sitting on your podcast, you know, in 2009 and said, you know what, Bob, this Facebook thing is a fad man. It's never going to go anywhere. Well, I would be out of left out of business right now. I wouldn't even be here.
Bob Preston: 22:04 Right?
Terry Ogburn: 22:04 So we have to understand inbound marketing. We really didn't have that as a vehicle for marketing. You know, a few years back now we have inbound marketing.
Bob Preston: 22:14 Well there are also some generational differences that I find in different, different generations of people like to communicate differently. I'm sure you found this the case too. I mean, in my market, you know, we have people of all ages that are clients and or tenants and I'm sure we've heard the meme, okay boomer, you know, which pretty much calls out the generation gap between baby boomers and millennials and the gen Z years that are coming up. But you know, for our, from a property perspective, we've got property clients and tenants, all age groups. So, it's pretty important to understand how they communicate, what motivates them and what technology they have access to.
Terry Ogburn: 22:47 And another thing that would be good for your listeners too is something called neural linguistics programming.
Bob Preston: 22:55 Tony Robbins, right? Isn't that Tony Robin?
Terry Ogburn: 22:56 Well, he's, uh, he's, uh, he's probably the most proficient practitioner of the language, but this is a language that was developed in 1973 by Richard Bandler. So, and there's books out now called NLP for dummies, like the yellow and black books that are out there. But we need this more in sales today than we ever needed before because there's a new model of selling out there today. And that new model is about establishing rapport. And so, we can establish rapport with people through our body and through our tones in the language we choose and in the words that we choose to be matching the customers terminologies that they use.
Bob Preston: 23:34 Absolutely right. And that's really key when you're trying to establish rapport or establish, I call it emotional connection, right? You're trying to, you're trying to make a with somebody of any age that can be challenging for some people.
Terry Ogburn: 23:48 And people want to do business with people who are like themselves. So as good salespeople, we are chameleons. We change, we interact, we can change and adapt to the situations that we're in. But there's a lot of salespeople can't do that.
Bob Preston: 24:02 Hey Terry, I always ask my guests to share a brief story about themselves. It could either be from your personal life, it could be from your business life. Over the years, something that's had a big impact on you and maybe the way you look at life. Would you share something with us?
Terry Ogburn: 24:18 Sure. I've got, I've, I've got a ton of stories, Bob, but.
Bob Preston: 24:23 I think you’ve told a few already, you know, so I'm sure you do. Yeah. You have a lot in your quiver.
Terry Ogburn: 24:27 The one of the best ones I have is, is when I was in the air conditioning business, I had this, you know, you can't tell me it can't be done there. I'm going to figure it out. There's gotta be some way to make this happen. So, I get a phone call one day and this, uh, this Tampa Sports Authority wants me to look at a sign. It's a, it's an electronic sign, a computer sign, and it's, it's not working during the summer because the heat, so they need the air conditioning. So, I go out there and I meet with the guy and I crawl up the tube and I'm walking through and it's changing and all this stuff. And I looked up at it and I said, oh yeah, I can get this done. If you can get $220 to the sign, I could probably get this done for you for like $3,000 and he says, are you sure? And I go, yeah, we have pretty much. He says, can you put it in writing? And I said, of course, you know, I'll never forget the figure was $2,147 and he'd had other companies out there that were wanting to charge him in upwards of $25,000 to do this thing. And my product, my thought was just cut a hole in the science shovel window unit in it. My guy could duck it so he can duck it across the top, just drop girls. I was just a simple little job, wouldn't it was done in a day. But what happened was that opened the door for Hillsborough County. It opened the door for the Tampa Sports Authority. It opened us Tampa Bay Buccaneers, the Cincinnati Reds. It just opened all these doors by just taking on a job that somebody said that can't, you know, something like that. And that turned my company around. Now, the other side of that story is the guy who recommended me to come. I said, well, I don't know how to do it, but if anybody knows how to do it would be Terry, that guy, Joe Fernandez, later on he went on and he got out of the air conditioning business and he went on to be a financial planner. Needs done. He's done well. But look at the thing. One decision caused him to be a financial planner and one my decision was to take it to a level where I could sell it to my employees.
Bob Preston: 26:17 Yeah. You know, and those types of views can be applied even every day in a business. I know in my, my business I like to get up and walk around and you know, observe what people are doing. I like to listen to what's going on throughout the office and every now and then I'll see something or hear something, and I'm just going. What is that really? How we do it? Is that still how we're doing it here? You know? And, and well, that's the way I was trained. That's I was taught and I'm on, man, there's gotta be a better way, right? I mean, this, this can, this can happen daily in a business. Just like your example, they, I think I can do it. And so sometimes I try to encourage my team to try new things. Sometimes they're really bad ideas. Sometimes they're brilliant ones, you know? But yeah, the way we started the session was you gotta try new things. You've got to try it. You might get knocked down, but that's okay. Get back up and try something else until you hit on the right one. Well, Hey, this has been a great episode. Thanks so much for joining us, Terry. In the interest of time, I need to wrap it up. I guess any last remaining thoughts or words of wisdom you'd like to give to our listeners about, you know, kind of some of the keys to business success.
Terry Ogburn: 27:23 If it's okay to, I'd like to offer something to your listeners if it, if it would be all right with your bed. Cool. Okay. What I'd like to offer them as if anybody was as interested in having a fireside chat with me. No charge. Just come up with your challenge that you're having. Reach out to me through my website at all. I'm sure it will be in the show notes or whatever. I'll, I'll be glad to give anybody one hour of my time so we can discuss a challenge. Maybe help them over a hurdle. I'd be more than happy to do that for your audience.
Bob Preston: 27:53 That'd be terrific. Yeah, that's a great offer. And what, which is the website you prefer people go to?
Terry Ogburn: 27:58 If they're going to come in from that one, let's go. Uh, I know both of my websites, so I'll probably be in there, but terryogburn.com if they come in through that when it hits a contact us button work on the phone, just my phone number, my cell number. I'll give it to you now if you want it. 727-422-4771 include that and shown us those people and reach out to me. I'd love to see if I could help them. Again, it's not a sales pitch. It's not what I do. I just provide content.
Bob Preston: 28:27 Perfect. Yeah, and that will be definitely in my show notes, so thank you Terry. Great episode. I'm sure our listeners will appreciate the time you took to join today, so thank you so much and we really appreciate all your insights. Okay. As we wrap up today, I'd like to make another quick plug to our listeners to click on the subscribe button and give us a like if you will or you know, also play it forward with a positive review and a help encourage more great guests like Terry to come onto her show. That concludes today's episode. Thank you for joining the property management brainstorm show. Until next time, we will be in the field working hard for our clients to maximize their property value and rental income and maintain top tenant relations. And we will catch you next time.
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