Episode 78: Optimizing PM Teams for Success Ft Pete Neubig

Opening: Pete Neubig  00:00

I'm seeing more and more people, more and more property management companies, look towards virtual assistants since the pandemic happened, and now we have this massive increase in inflation. More and more people in America need more money than ever before. And there are only a few high-level jobs in property management firms. There are a lot of low-level enjoyable jobs that require more money to afford to pay what people need these days.

Welcome to Property Management Brainstorm  00:27

Welcome to the property management brainstorm show with Bob Preston. 

Bob Preston  01:08

Hello, Brainstormers. This is Bob Preston, your host broadcasting from our Property Management Brainstorm studio in Del Mar, California. If you're new here, please subscribe for ongoing access to all our episodes. And if you like what you hear, we would love a positive review. So, before I dive in today, I would like to thank our amazing sponsors for helping to support the show: zInspector, SureVestor, APM Help, VPM Solutions, RentScale, Second Nature, Blanket, and finally, today's feature sponsor Showdigs, who you will hear about more in a brief mid-roll about halfway through the episode.

 As a percentage of total expense for a typical property management company, the staffing line can vary depending upon various factors within your business, including the company size, range of services, location, and overall business model. However, a general guideline that we see according to the benchmarks that NARPM publishes is that staffing expenses typically represent 40 to about 60% of a property management company's overall expense. In a typical property management company. Staffing is the most significant expense line on the P&L and can be the difference between profit and loss. Therefore, your property management team must be fine-tuned and set up as efficiently as possible to optimize staffing for success. My guest on the show today is Pete Neubig, CEO of VPM Solutions, an online platform built specifically for the property management industry, providing access to over 1000s of candidates from 100 countries specific to the housing industry. Pete and I will dive into what it takes to optimize property management teams for success. It's going to be a great episode. You'll need to listen. So here you go. Pete, welcome to the Property Management Brainstorm.

Pete Neubig  02:56

Bob, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited for you. This is going to be a great new adventure for you.

Bob Preston  03:02

I'm so excited to have you back on the show. You and I know each other well, but I still like to always start the show by asking my guests to introduce themselves. Could you tell us a bit about your background? I know it's extensive in your case. So, could you keep it short? But you'll also be able to tell us about VPM Solutions. And so, how about that as we kick things off? 

Pete Neubig  03:23

Sure. Like you, I was a property manager; I sold my business in 2019. We had 980 properties when we sold, and I took a job with Mynd, who purchased us, and I was there for about 18 months. And within those 18 months, I realized that I was unemployable. And so, I started my new business called VPM Solutions, a platform connecting the property management industry with remote team members in over 100 countries.  

Bob Preston  03:52

Wow, that's interesting because that's my parallel. I stayed with Pure for about 18 months and wasn't necessarily unemployable. I know what you mean by that. You know, you wanted to be an entrepreneur, right? So, you then are working at the corporate level. It got to the point where I felt I was taking marching orders instead of creating something on my own. 

Pete Neubig  04:22

We could do a whole show on people who sold their businesses. You know, their experiences afterward. The Good, the Bad, and The Ugly because there's a little bit of everything.

Bob Preston  04:31

Yeah, for sure. All right. So, as I mentioned, this is your second time on the show. The first was when you were starting VPM Solutions. It was three to three years ago; I can't remember since you were last on the show, two or three years since, whatever. What are some staffing trends and changes in the property management industry? 

Pete Neubig  04:51

I'm seeing more and more people and more and more property management companies look towards virtual assistants since the pandemic happened, and now we have this massive increase in inflation. More and more people in America need more money than ever before. There are only a few high-level jobs in property management firms; as a matter of fact, there are a lot of low-level, enjoyable jobs that can't afford to pay what people need these days. So, more and more people are learning about virtual assistants, acting on them, and moving more low-level enjoyment jobs overseas.

Bob Preston  05:30

Well, it's interesting because, since the pandemic, many companies have realized, hey, I don't need a physical office. So, if people are going to be remote, they're open to hiring people in their locale; they can go anywhere. 

Pete Neubig  05:48

I read an article recently that said if you're a US-based worker working 100% remotely, your job will be outsourced in the next ten years. So, I know there are a lot of people that don't want to go back to the office. You know, you've seen this a lot in Northern California, the tech companies, they're, they're making their people come back to the office, and they're very resistant to it. But at the end of the day, the trend is that more people are returning to the office. And they want it because they have this ample office space. For me at Empire, I always kept my office. I didn't even want people coming back. And then we're at Mynd, same concept.

Bob Preston  06:31

Yeah, that's interesting. And if you go back to work in the physical offices, that could be a little job security. 

Pete Neubig  06:40

The tech companies wanted it mainly because they're seeing that data, people are working outside the office, and there needs to be more creativity happening. With property management, we don't need creativity; I hate to say, right, we need tasks done. If we do our jobs correctly and create the organization's structure correctly, 80% of those tasks are always done. And then you have, you know, the humanization of 20% gets escalated to your top team. So, the challenges that the tech companies have to bring people back into the office don't apply to our industry.

Bob Preston  07:21

I agree. Okay, so I speak to many property management companies as you do. And there are so many different strategies for structuring your team here. And now, I'm talking about something other than remote versus in-house at this point, but just the structure and how the team is organized. And, you know, each approach has pros and cons. So, there are portfolio models, right? There are departmental functional teams, and there is hybrid; from your perspective, what do you see in working with companies out there on their staffing efficiency? What's the most efficient model for optimizing staffing? In your mind?

Pete Neubig  08:03

Yeah, so how about I give it the old “it depends” on the answer now?

Bob Preston  08:07

Right? Yeah.

Pete Neubig  08:08

That's right. You know, when you go to a NARPM or product manager conference, we always ask how many doors you manage. And everybody's like, oh, that doesn't make any sense. Because it doesn't matter; they're about the revenue and the profit. 

Bob Preston  08:21

I don't like the question either for the same reason. 

Pete Neubig  08:25

But operationally, Bob, it matters. I can't. If I'm running 980 units, and you're running 50, my org chart will be completely different than yours. And so the systems that I have are entirely different. So I'll give you the answer. I'll make sure to provide you with the solution. When you start your portfolio, you're portfolio-based, right? You're doing everything yourself up to 50 units. So, you're a property manager and the leasing agent; you're wearing every hat. Your Org Chart has one box with every function. And then when you get about 50 units, you're like, holy crap, I can't grow anymore. Underwater, I'm working late. I'm making less money than when I quit my job. So, I need help. And that's where you're going to hybrid. And then you take a couple of hats and split off like an amoeba. And you say, okay, here, and this is where a virtual assistant is beneficial because if you hire somebody in the U.S., the salary requirements are high. So, you can have somebody, and you can say, alright, I don't like these three things, these functions I don't like. So, I will create a job description for these three things. And now I'm a hybrid. Well, now when you get to, let's say, 200 units, and in between that, that 50 and 200, you're still hybrid, but you keep splitting off some of those hats. And now, instead of one assistant, you have four or five even, well, at some point, and it's around a 300-door mark is what I found is you have to move from hybrid to departmental. And now you have people responsible for specific parts of the business. So you have your maintenance team, turn coordinator, leasing team, resident services team, whatever is right. And then I found that I got to about 900 doors; departmental worked fine for us. But when I went to Mynd, you'll see this at Pure or Evernest or more prominent companies; they tend to go to the pod structure. And so, now I wanted to bring the virtual assistants back in, like, when I rented apartments, my virtual assistant team ran each department. So, I will have somebody in the US have a virtual assistant as a supervisor and other VAs to run those departments. And one of the mistakes that people make is, Well, I only want to give him a checklist, they only do that checklist, they actually can do a lot more, they can be an integral part of your organization. But if you don't have the exemplary org chart, then chaos ensues, is what I found.

Bob Preston  11:09

And let's be clear: I don't know much about the other companies, but the pod structure works. And if we talk about that, just for a few seconds, to let people know what that is. It's a staffing model based on how many doors are in that branch office, right? And it works at a larger corporate entity, like Mynd, because some of the functions get picked up at the corporate level, for example, accounting, right? So you're centralizing some expenses the branch offices aren't paying for anymore? Is that how you see it?

Pete Neubig  11:47

I do. I wonder if anybody has cracked the code on, you know, being able to manage 50,000 or 100,000 units across the country just yet. But pod structure is one of the ways people are trying to figure that out.

Bob Preston  12:04

Okay, so another aspect of it that has a significant impact on the industry right now is prop tech. Alright, there, everyone has their tech stack. So, what tech solutions do you think offer the most bang for the buck in terms of optimizing staffing?

Pete Neubig  12:18

Well, it depends on your personality type. And I am a huge nerd. So, I'm very detail-oriented. And I'm an operations guy. So, if you ask my old business partner this, he would probably tell you something about a CRM system. For me, I'm going to go the other way. I think Lead Simple is changing the game. And I'll shout him out to Jordan, Zach, and the team. They're doing an incredible job. Before Lead Simple came out, Bob, I wonder if you knew this. But I used HubSpot in a way that Leads Simple operates today. So, what Lead Simple is, it's just an automation tool that allows you to take your process, input it into a software called Lead Simple, and it will spit out tasks and emails and automate a lot of this, a lot of these, these tasks that we forget to do. And so I'm a big fan of if you have your correct process down. Now, if you put garbage in, you get garbage out on any software. And so you have to get your process documented, dialed out. And then and only then do you put it in the Lead Simple. And then, over time, you turn on the automation inside the information. So even though it's in Lead Simple, you still run it manually for maybe a month. And then you start automating stuff. And to me, there are only two ways. Well, three now that you don't have an office, that's one way to reduce your costs. But the other way to become super efficient and is the best bang for the buck for your profitability is a combination of virtual assistants with automation. And if you don't have regular property management software, like that's obviously if you're still operating off of a spreadsheet, you're in trouble. 

Bob Preston  14:10

And there's even automation popping up now in some of those, you know, solutions, like Appfolio and things like that. So, it's more of the automation concept and selecting the right tools to help you get there. That's the point you're trying to make here: it enables you to maximize your efficiency and optimize your staffing to keep the staffing levels at the optimum level to support the business with automation.

Pete Neubig  14:37

Yeah, the more automation you have, the more the more doors per person you can manage

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Bob Preston  15:45

Okay, so this is a good point in our conversation here. We'll get to that anyway; it segues into hiring in-house versus remotely. Right, you have two options. And you and I were chatting before the episode started. Many companies, after the pandemic, don't even have offices anymore. So everybody's remote. But I see this as one of the most critical choices any owner or operations manager has, and the property management company is kind of where you're going to allow people to work and where you're going to be hiring people based on their talent instead of where they're located. So, what are the ins and outs from your perspective and decision factors for each approach? In-house versus remote?

Pete Neubig  16:29

Yeah, so you're talking to a guy who created a VA company, so you know. Still, when I ran Empire Industries, the property management firm, I had about 34 people working for me 23 were in Mexico or virtual assistants, and the other 11 were in the States. So, I can tell you what I did and what I believe; anything that is task-based can be a virtual system. Anything that requires a license or to be physically at a property or somewhere has to be a US-based person. So now there's that middle management. What about supervisors, middle management, and things of that nature? All right. And over time, I thought it had to be U.S. But over time, I've moved over into what can be a virtual team. Even now, your CFO could be somebody virtual if they have a doctorate in it but they live in Mexico. I mean, they can still be your CFO. So, if it were me, I'd have 2/3 remote people versus 1/3 people in my office. I still like my license and my property managers to be licensed. And I want to be able to take the escalations. Bob, I changed the property manager, removed that title from our company, and called them asset managers.

Bob Preston  18:02

I remember talking about this before with you. because property

Pete Neubig  18:05

Because property managers like gophers, like hey, go for this, go for that. And so, I'd rather they be asset managers, and I want them to talk about higher level things, not like, oh, we didn't send a three-day notice. That's your virtual assistant team that handles those tasks. I will talk to you about your portfolio, the market conditions, and things of that nature. 

Bob Preston  18:29

And there are, to your point, specific tasks within the industry and at the property manager level that, occasionally, you do have to get up, get in the car, and go to a property.

Pete Neubig  18:43

It does happen from time to time. That's right.

Bob Preston  18:47

Being from Southern California, living here is prohibitive, right? So, when I look at National Staffing benchmarks, for example, the 2022 benchmarks from NARPM, hiring remote talent can be a massive equalizer when comparing our metrics to national averages. So, I'm talking about if I were to engage every employee locally in San Diego as a W-2 employee vs. hiring people remotely. That's a tremendous equalizer. Do you agree with that? 

Pete Neubig  19:19

Yeah, 100%. What I found when hiring is now a few years back; this is probably the 2017-2018 timeframe. I found that I can employ about two and a half people remotely for each person in the United States. And that was in Central America. If I moved to the Philippines, I could do three to 3.2 for every person. I wonder if those numbers change because I don't know the average salary of U.S. people anymore. Because I knew what I was paying my people and Empire and then what I replaced them with what I could hire for, but I can tell you we've been in business for over two years at VPM. So, we Have over 700 jobs that are filled through the platform. And I can tell you that the average hourly rate for a VA working for a company on our platform is about $9.02. an hour. And if you are in the Philippines, that number goes down to about $7 an hour. In Mexico, it goes to about nine; it's like $9.20 or something an hour. So, it depends on which country you find lower versus right. Like you said, a property manager might make $100,000 in Southern California. In Houston, Texas, the same property managers managing the same amount of doors make $70,000. And the same property manager in Mexico might make, you know, $15,000. 

Bob Preston  20:49

That's interesting. And to be clear, the VA is what we're talking about. They're hired as contractors, right? So you're not paying employment taxes, and you're not paying benefits, right? Those add expenses to that line as well if they were W-2 employees.

Pete Neubig  21:09

That's correct. They are responsible for their taxes because they are not foreign nationals, so they handle them. And if you do what's called a direct hire, they get paid more per hour than if they were going through a, you know, a placement service firm. But they are making some people in the US have this challenging time, like I can't pay somebody seven bucks an hour. And I'm telling you that $7 An hour equates to a $55,000 or $100,000-a-year salary in the United States. And so you know, you have to get over that because you understand the cost of living. And that's the point I was trying to make: Southern California versus Houston versus Mexico. 

Bob Preston  21:58

So, we've touched on this already. But let's name names. What are the typical jobs within a property management company that are most suitable for VA versus, you know, a direct employee hire?

Pete Neubig  22:09

I'll return to my old mantra: anything that does not need to be physically at the property. So what does that mean? Well, the number one job posted on our platform is maintenance coordinator. The challenge with that job being the first one is, and you know, this, Bob, the maintenance coordinator role has a lot of decision points. And the more decision points you have in any part, the longer it takes for training. And so I'm a big believer that, well, I can tell you, it took me 90 days to train my team, from maintenance points to after 90 days, they got it. And they were great at it. But it was 90 days of like every day of me training them for an hour, two hours a day. Other positions like lease renewal coordinator, listing coordinator, marketing coordinator, or property accounting have fewer decision points. And so, on average, I can train them in about two to three weeks. And so, as you go through each process in your organization, ask yourself, does this person need to be in the office? Right? At Empire, we were very aggressive with virtual assistants, meaning we had to do many jobs that others wouldn't do. For example, when you call my office, Bob, if you want to work with us as a potential client, you talk to a virtual assistant; they are our inside sales reps, or they ask all the questions. Then they scheduled you with somebody in the US in sales. Right? When all the onboarding, when you bring somebody on by Tuesday, you need your property manager, who's supposed to be your highest and best-use team member, to enter property information. And enter leasing information and resident information into the system. No, give that to a team member. The utility turn-on is another huge time waster. Why am I paying somebody 50 bucks an hour to do that when I could pay somebody five?

Bob Preston  24:18

That's right. It's interesting because a maintenance coordinator may be called a maintenance facilitator; our first VA hire was the same concept. Right? And it worked well. You still might need someone to occasionally go on-site and look at a job or assess if the job was completed correctly. But that can be done, you know, after the fact. As a maintenance facilitator, you're more or less a matchmaker; you're getting the proper maintenance vendor dispatched to the property and matched with a tenant. That doesn't require a skilled property manager, right, or licensed property manager. 

Pete Neubig  24:54

I'm a big believer that you do need field techs. I don't know if there's is another word for it, but we call them field technicians; they would go in, do the pre-moving, reporting, the post-moving reporting, get the property, you know, and so my property managers in Houston, because Houston is, is a vast city, you drive an hour and still be in Houston. So, my team, I knew that if my product manager had to get up off their chair, get a car, and drive, I lost a day of work. We had to cut that down. So, we had field techs that did that. So, they report back to the manager, and only if it is high escalation with the manager, leave the chair and go to a property to check it out.

Bob Preston  25:43

Well, you're a good person to answer this question. So that's the maintenance facilitator. But if you get into, you know, turning over accounting or bookkeeping or something like that, I'm assuming they're trained people who know the basics of bookkeeping and accounting that are available, still virtual, right? 

Pete Neubig  25:59

100%? Yeah, accounting and marketing, like all the basic stuff, like people know that it's the stuff that integrates to our industry, that it's more challenging, it's harder to find people that have experience in that. So you have to hire on attitude and personality for those roles.

Bob Preston  26:18

And in some cases, differences might exist between states and legal stuff when it comes to leasing and things like that. But that's what you're licensed property managers are handling. So, when searching for a virtual assistant and identifying hiring candidates, what makes VPM Solutions different from other companies offering VA talent? 

Pete Neubig  26:41

That is a great question. So, there are two ways to find talent. One is you can go to a placement service company, and they'll see your talent, and what is to go to a platform like ours and find talent. So, let's talk a bit about the differences with a placement service company; I've heard that you'll get charged an upfront fee of anywhere from $1,500 to $5,000. But the positive is that they will take your money and say, alright, Bob, we'll be back in a few weeks. And we're going to find some candidates for you. And we're going to do the pre-interviews, and we're going to let you interview the final three candidates. So, there's little time it takes for you. And then, if you'd like to hire a candidate, you take one and move on; that candidate works for that company. And then they set the market rate and say, okay, Bob, here's how much we'll charge you. Don't worry about what the VA makes; they'll get paid accordingly. And then the other positive is if you don't like the guy we hired, the company would say, okay, well, we'll give him a performance evaluation. And we'll replace him with somebody else. So, the management side is gone. And, of course, the upfront of finding the right person is gone. So, there's a lot less time, but you are paying for that in money,

Bob Preston  27:59

That's a good point.

Pete Neubig  28:00

Now, with a direct hire, they directly get hired by you as a contractor. So, the positive of this approach is there needs to be more money upfront with VPM. There are no fees for the company at all.

Bob Preston  28:17

So you're hiring them directly. 

Pete Neubig  28:21

That's correct. And there are no fees for the company to post the job. There's no monthly fee set of costs or anything like that. But so the positive of that is there are no fees. The other part is they work directly for you. So, when you want to implement your culture and core values on these folks, you can’t do that when they work for another company. They're essential in their core values on them as well. So, there's a miss, you know, he who has two masters has none, so to speak, because they have two bosses, they have you, and they have the company they work for. The other thing is that you're getting charged more money. They're getting paid less with a direct hire; you pay less, and they make more money. Because with our solution, we make money by charging the VA 10%. So, they're only paying 10% of their salary. Versus with a placement service company. It might be a lot more, up to 30-40%, maybe even 50%.

Bob Preston  29:09

That’s probably about a third, right? I think in most cases. 

Pete Neubig  29:13

It's up to more than that sometimes. Yeah. And so so. So, by taking the middleman out of you, you have less churn with the team because they're getting paid better. So they're happier, and they want to stick around. And because your core values get pushed down your culture, they tip you to hiring the right person in the right seat, so your churn rate goes down. With our company, we offer what's called a white glove service. So, we'll walk you through the whole process. The only thing we need to do is interview right now. We will do everything else for you. But it's your job to do the final interviews.

Bob Preston  29:51

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, if you're a direct hire and you know that you're working for that employer, that makes a big difference just in the way they feel about themselves and culturally, you know, fitting within and being a part of an organization versus almost being alone when you're going through a different company, correct?

Pete Neubig  30:14

Yeah. Yeah. And the last piece is the VPM. Academy. We didn't have this when I spoke to you a couple of years ago, right? VPM Academy, where we have 28 courses on the platform now. Most of them are written for people looking to enter the industry; they could take a class; for example, just in October of 2023, we launched a maintenance coordination on one system. And you can take that course you have a test out. And when you test out and pass the test, you get a certification on the platform. And so you, as a company, I need somebody who has, you know, who knows maintenance coordination. Well, you can at least search by the certification, saying, this person took this course. And they passed it. So obviously, that person's interested in maintenance, and they can learn and retain knowledge.

Bob Preston  31:16

Okay, one of the advantages of your platform, which you didn't explicitly touch on, is that you get to look at more candidates. Does the hiring company do that? Or do you help them with that process?

Pete Neubig  31:29

The hiring company does that; we have 32,000 on the platform. Now, 31,972. Last time I checked. And, if you know the platform is built as a DIY so that you can search and review resume cards, you can invite them to a job. When you post a job, you get matched with people who are the best candidates for your position. And then, of course, they can apply for your job. And if you're like, overwhelmed already, we get that; you can use the white glove service, which, again, is the free service where we walk you through the platform, step by step, and give you all the little nuances that we learned, like, what red tape? Would you like it? What questions should you ask before you interview people? What do you think you should know? Should you ask for a video? Should you have a test? Things of that nature? So, we've figured some of that stuff out?

Bob Preston  32:24

That's awesome. Okay, and how are those people finding you, the people that are the talent, you know, the people that are on, you know, the 32,000 people that are on your platform? How do they find the VPM solutions? 

Pete Neubig  32:35

We're doing a great job of marketing inside different countries. Our affiliate program spread like wildfire, where they will get their friends and family to create a profile. And if their friend or family gets a job, we give them a portion of what we make. And so, we have an affiliate program that does that for a while and a referral program. But the virtual assistant thing has been around for most people in other countries since 2000. And it's caught on, so they're more mature in the idea of working remotely than us is right now. The USA came into vogue in 2020 when the pandemic hit. 

Bob Preston  33:19

I didn't have any when I first started my business, and then, you know, saw the light, probably in 2017, in that timeframe.

Pete Neubig  33:30

So yeah, we were early. You and I were early adopters of it. Since 2020, many more people have moved to the VA side.

Bob Preston  33:40

There is no doubt about it. Okay, so if I'm listening today and interested in becoming a client for VPN solutions, what's the process for finding and hiring a VA from there? What do they do?

Pete Neubig  33:52

It’s straightforward. Go to www.vpmsolutions.com and create a free profile. From there, you can browse those 32,000 profiles and resume cards. And that's it. It's accessible to that easy. If you want to reach out to me directly and schedule some time or a demo, it's Pete@VPMSolutions.com. And feel free to email me. And I love talking like this ball of talking business. I love talking about property management and virtual assistants. So sometimes, it's tough to shut me up. 

Bob Preston  34:30

You're a passionate guy, and you know your stuff. And it's always great to chat about this kind of stuff. And the platform, from an employer's perspective, is free, right? It's different from Indeed or some other venue where you must pay 800 bucks just to get a job right. I always love talking to you. This has been a good conversation, but we must wrap up here in the interest of time. So, what other closing thoughts do you have that you can share with our listeners? Yeah,

Pete Neubig  34:57

If you're a little nervous and on the fence about a remote team member, don't just give it a shot; try with a tiny, you know, small job inside the organization. And then the other thing is, whenever you're ready to hire somebody, whether remote or not, ensure you have a clear job description. So, you and they know what that looks like if you can have key performance indicators. So it's the report card, so you know they're doing a good job. So, there are some prerequisites before you hire folks. And those are the two things, and make sure you have core values. So you know, that type of person you want. So core values, job description, KPIs. You can hire people if you still need them, but the success rate decreases to zero. I have all that information. This way, you know exactly what you're looking for, and the success rate increases.

Bob Preston  35:48

And don't you help companies with that? Do you have job descriptions and such on your website?

Pete Neubig  35:54

I do have over 50 of them with a recommended DISC profile and recommended KPIs. 

Bob Preston  36:00

So that's another benefit of the platform. That's the value add, right? 

Pete Neubig  36:04

Yes, absolutely.

Bob Preston  36:06

I already talked about how to reach out to Pete. His link will be in our episode notes. And if anybody wants help connecting, I can do that, too. So, hey, Pete, thanks so much for being on the show today. I hope to see you soon. And it's always great to chat. And hopefully, you'll be at the NARPM broker-owner event. We'll see each other face-to-face sometime shortly.

Pete Neubig  36:24

Yeah, definitely. We'll see you there. Thanks for having me. Really. 

Bob Preston  36:28

I appreciate you being on the show. As we wrap up today, I'd like to make a quick plug for our listeners to click on the subscribe button, give us a like, and pay it forward with a positive review. Thank you for tuning in to the property management brainstorm, where we are always working hard to find new ways to advance the industry. And we will catch you next time.